Blog Entry

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

Posted on: January 11, 2012 8:10 am
Edited on: January 13, 2012 7:45 am
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By Matt Snyder


So, the Winter Meetings are far in the rearview, the Hall of Fame voting results have been revealed and we're just over five weeks away from the day when pitchers and catchers report to camp. With a very few free agents still lingering on the market -- I'm looking right at you, big boy -- we can't exactly start ramping up predictions, either. So let's do this instead: Argue. We'll start a series of posts where we set the table for you fans to vote in a poll and then argue below in the comments section. Who would you rather have? We'll pit two players of close value against each other and let you make the call.

Today, since it's the start of the series and we need something explosive, how about deciding if you'd rather have Roy Halladay or Justin Verlander.

The case for Halladay

Doc has been one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball for the better part of a decade. If you didn't know much about him until he was traded to the Phillies, you either live in a very limited baseball world, don't play fantasy baseball or both. All the way back in 2002, a young Halladay was going 19-7 with a 2.93 ERA (a freaking 159 ERA-plus, people). The following year he won the Cy Young award. After injuries sidetracked him a bit for the next two seasons, Halladay went on a ridiculous run.

For the past six seasons, Halladay has averaged the following line (again, this is an average): 18-8, 2.86 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, 187 strikeouts, eight complete games, two shutouts and 236 innings. His finishes in Cy Young voting in those six years: 3, 5, 2, 5, 1, 2.

He's doing it in the playoffs, too, as Halladay threw a no-hitter in his first career postseason start and has a 2.37 ERA and 0.74 WHIP in 38 postseason innings. This is something you could use to denigrate Verlander, too, as he sports a 5.57 ERA and 1.55 WHIP in 42 career postseason innings.

The case for Verlander

Much like Halladay, Verlander keeps his bullpen well-rested. He's averaged 238 innings pitched the past three seasons with 11 complete games and three shutouts (two of those no-hitters).

Verlander is coming off a transcendent season, one in which he won the Cy Young and MVP, while leading the leads in wins, ERA, innings, strikeouts, WHIP, hits allowed per nine innings and 100-mph fastballs later than the seventh inning (among starters). Just watching this guy work leaves you in awe. How can he crank it up to 100 in the eighth or ninth after having thrown over 100 pitches in 95-degree heat in the middle of the summer? He's like a freak of nature for avoiding injury with that kind of action, too, as he's made at least 30 starts every year since being a full-time starter (when he won Rookie of the Year in 2006). And while Halladay is pretty much already guaranteed a spot in Cooperstown, it's easy to see Verlander heading that way as well.

Finally, while their salaries are a wash (both making right around $20 million per year for the next two -- Verlander for a third and Halladay has a vesting option for a third), Verlander will be 29 this season. Halladay will turn 35 in May. So if you're saying who would we want from this point forward -- which, I mean, that's pretty obvious, right? -- do you want a 29-year-old Verlander coming off the best season in recent memory or a 35-year-old Halladay?

On the other hand, Verlander's ERA hovered between 3.37 and 3.66 in his good seasons before last year -- we'll even do him the courtesy of throwing out that dreadful 2008 season. You could argue last season was his career year and he'll regress from being out-of-this-world dominant back to merely (please note sarcasm) being a stud who makes the All-Star Game and gets Cy Young votes every year.

Our call

Man, it's just such a toss up. I think I'd go with Verlander only because of age, but if he ends up being more 2009-10 again instead of the monster we saw in 2011, Halladay is better. We started off with this one because it's one of the toughest calls, pitting the current two best pitchers in baseball. There definitely isn't a wrong answer. Vote and discuss with impunity.

Fan Vote:



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Comments

Since: May 29, 2009
Posted on: January 13, 2012 3:16 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

Hey Nfc east fan,

I told you you can not talk with this guy.Verlander has the Luxury of facing some of the worst teams in baseball.Noone beside the Tigers even had a record above .500 this season.And if Verlander had to face the Yanks and Sox's 15 times a season he would not come close to 25 wins.

What is really Sad was that his own MANAGER did not even have faith to give Verlander the ballin game 7 against the Rangers.

13 CG'S FOR VERLANDER.

42 CG'S FOR HALLADAY WHO IS 6 YEARS OLDER
brian,

if you go take a look at who the Phillies faces -- 3 of the 4 teams in his division hit .247 or lower AS A TEAM.  the braves and nationals were in the bottom 5 for the entire MLB.

another thing is -- if you can tell me a single pitcher that has faced the Yankes and Sox 15 times a season, I will say you are absolutely correct.  I don't need to put Verlander's numbers against the East in the last few years, as redwings posted it already.  As a matter of fact -- the Tigers as a whole had a winning record against the AL East last year and a better winning % against the East than NY or Boston had against the AL East.  The AL East team with the best winning % against AL East teams was Tampa Bay -- they went 1-6 against the Tigers last year.

As far as CGs -- since Verlander has only played 6 years -- let's look at Halladay's 1st 6 years.

Verlander 14 CG's
Halladay 14 CG's

So in their 1st 6 years in the MLB they had the exact same number of complete games.  Putting up Halladay's complete game stats when he has pitched 7 more years in the MLB is pointless -- that's like saying Halladay is more of a strikeout pitcher because he has 1900 strikeouts in his 14 years and Verlander only has 1200 in 6 years.  The fact is -- if Verlander just averages the same amount of K's he has in his 1st 6 years -- he will have almost 1000 more K's than Halladay once he has played 14 years. 



Since: May 29, 2009
Posted on: January 13, 2012 3:01 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

Umm Halladay has a much better career track record and much better playoff record. If you need to chose well the numbers speak for themselves dont they.... Halladay beats Verlander in about every matchup you can. Not to take anything away from Verlander, but you know what I know Doc will have another great year, it is what he always does. Verlander has been up and down his career and absolutely blows in the clutch playoff game.

Easy choice Halladay.
nfceastfan,

a couple questions for you:

what were halladay's stats in his 1st 6 years in the MLB??

what were halladay's playoffs stats in his 1st 5 years in the MLB??  what about his 1st 10 years in the MLB??


As far as Halladay beating Verlander in every matchup -- the last 6 years Halladay was in his prime and 2 of those years were in the NL.  The 6 years for Verlander were his ONLY 6 in the MLB.

I'll already posted some of the stats -- Since Halladay beats Verlander in every matchup, how is it:

Verlander has more strikeouts

Verlander has given up less hits

Halladay only has TWO more wins in the last 6 years than Verlander (this is JV's ONLY 6 years)


Also -- can you please explain how Verlander has been up and down?!?!  Is it winning 17 as a rookie, 18 in his 2nd years, 19 in his 4th year, 18 in his 5 year and 24 in his 6th year?!?!  

If you want to compare the two pitcher's -- take a look at what Halladay did in his 1st 6 years compared to what Verlander has done in his 1st 6 years, since Verlander hasn't even hit his prime. 



Since: Jun 25, 2009
Posted on: January 13, 2012 2:18 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

Hey Nfc east fan,

I told you you can not talk with this guy.Verlander has the Luxury of facing some of the worst teams in baseball.Noone beside the Tigers even had a record above .500 this season.And if Verlander had to face the Yanks and Sox's 15 times a season he would not come close to 25 wins.

Hey moron.  Here are Verlander's stats from the last 2 years against the east.... not bad, even a buffoon like you can figure this out.


107 innings.   8-2-1 record with 5 no decisions.  A 2.85 ERA.  A 1.08 WHIP.  40 walks, 111 strikeouts. 


Halladay didn't do much better then that son. 

What is really Sad was that his own MANAGER did not even have faith to give Verlander the ballin game 7 against the Rangers
 
Statements like that separate you from the rest of the buffoons on these boards.  First of all the Tigers and Rangers never played a game 7.   Second of all only the biggest moron on this planet would believe Leyland doesn't have "faith" in Verlander, I honestly thought even YOU were smarted then that.  I know... my bad.   Leyland rarely pitches anybody on 1 day less rest let alone 2 days less, regardless of whether it's the regular season or the playoffs.  He protects his start pitcher's arm, that's all.  And oh yeah, Fister was ready for game 7.  Since he became a Tiger he was right up there with the hottest pitchers in baseball this year.  I Know I know... he didn't win games in Seattle with the worst hitting team in the league, right?  I know, 1 run support in his last 10 outings in Seattle is no excuse, he should have shut everybody out.  But seriously, are you really THAT stupid?  I'm starting to  think you're just messing with people now because nobody can really be that dumb.


brian8ball
Since: Aug 3, 2011
Posted on: January 13, 2012 1:57 pm
This comment has been removed.

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Since: Jun 25, 2009
Posted on: January 13, 2012 1:32 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

MikeD5405, Halladay pitched most of his  against the Red Sox and Yankees when they were awesome (still good). Verlander pitched against well much less talented offenses his entire career.  I know you picked Verlander subjectively, but your Tigers division has been weak for most of Verlanders career. It is what it is. If he stays in Detroit against those teams he may have Halladay numbers. Firts of all thats a big if. Halladay is the standard

You make me laugh out loud.  You tell us Halladay pitched in the A.L East and imply Verlander wouldn't do as well there without even looking up the numbers.  Well, I'm smarter then that so I did look them up, let me tell you what Verlander's stats are the last TWO seasons, not just last year's career season.  Here are Verlander's last 2 season stats against the A.L East teams.

107 innings.   8-2-1 record with 5 no decisions.  A 2.85 ERA.  A 1.08 WHIP.  40 walks, 111 strikeouts.

Tell me again that his numbers are better against the Central ????  

As for playoffs, Verlander is terrible in the playoffs. He cost your team a shot at the World Series 2 years in a row. Defend him all you want he is completely unreliable. Halladay on the other hand you get the same thing in playoffs as you do in regular season from him. 
 
Now I think you're really Brian8ball with 2 user id's, because that statement is literally half retarded.  Against Texas the Tigers won one of Verlander's starts and lost another one of his starts I believe 3-2.  He didn't pitch well or for long in that game, but Verlander hardly cost his team a chance at a world series.  



Since: Aug 29, 2006
Posted on: January 13, 2012 12:26 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

MikeD5405, Halladay pitched most of his career against the Red Sox and Yankees when they were awesome (still good). Verlander pitched against well much less talented offenses his entire career.  I know you picked Verlander subjectively, but your Tigers division has been weak for most of Verlanders career. It is what it is. If he stays in Detroit against those teams he may have Halladay numbers. Firts of all thats a big if. Halladay is the standard. 

As for numbers lol, he wont come close to Halladay in Complete Games or Walks. At his pace he wont match him for Shutouts either. Halladay has 6 season under a 3.00 ERA to Verlanders first 1 this year. Dont get too overexcited. He is good but he is no Roy Halladay...yet. I like Verlander but as it is now he is not as good as Roy Halladay. His numbers show it. Wins for a pitcher are ridiculous. If you want to compare him to Roy Halladay he has to do what Roy Halladay does better than any pitcher in baseball. Close out what you start. Verlander is no where near Halladay.  He is the next best thing, but he cant go 9 innings in a game like Halladay does. It is really not fair to match the 2 up being that Halladay pitched against 6 world series winning offenses the first 10 years of his career and dominated them year in and out and Verlander played well for Detroit....

As for playoffs, Verlander is terrible in the playoffs. He cost your team a shot at the World Series 2 years in a row. Defend him all you want he is completely unreliable. Halladay on the other hand you get the same thing in playoffs as you do in regular season from him. 



Since: Aug 29, 2006
Posted on: January 13, 2012 12:25 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

MikeD5405, Halladay pitched most of his career against the Red Sox and Yankees when they were awesome (still good). Verlander pitched against well much less talented offenses his entire career.  I know you picked Verlander subjectively, but your Tigers division has been weak for most of Verlanders career. It is what it is. If he stays in Detroit against those teams he may have Halladay numbers. Firts of all thats a big if. Halladay is the standard. 

As for numbers lol, he wont come close to Halladay in Complete Games or Walks. At his pace he wont match him for Shutouts either. Halladay has 6 season under a 3.00 ERA to Verlanders first 1 this year. Dont get too overexcited. He is good but he is no Roy Halladay...yet. I like Verlander but as it is now he is not as good as Roy Halladay. His numbers show it. Wins for a pitcher are ridiculous. If you want to compare him to Roy Halladay he has to do what Roy Halladay does better than any pitcher in baseball. Close out what you start. Verlander is no where near Halladay.  He is the next best thing, but he cant go 9 innings in a game like Halladay does. It is really not fair to match the 2 up being that Halladay pitched against 6 world series winning offenses the first 10 years of his career and dominated them year in and out and Verlander played well for Detroit....

As for playoffs, Verlander is terrible in the playoffs. He cost your team a shot at the World Series 2 years in a row. Defend him all you want he is completely unreliable. Halladay on the other hand you get the same thing in playoffs as you do in regular season from him. 


brian8ball
Since: Aug 3, 2011
Posted on: January 13, 2012 12:25 pm
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brian8ball
Since: Aug 3, 2011
Posted on: January 13, 2012 12:20 pm
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Since: Aug 29, 2006
Posted on: January 13, 2012 12:04 pm
 

Would You Rather Have: Halladay or Verlander?

"He's doing it in the playoffs, too, as Halladay threw a no-hitter in his first career postseason start and has a 2.37 ERA and 0.74 WHIP in 38 postseason innings. This is something you could use to denigrate Verlander, too, as he sports a 5.57 ERA and 1.55 WHIP in 42 career postseason innings. "

Umm Halladay has a much better career track record and much better playoff record. If you need to chose well the numbers speak for themselves dont they.... Halladay beats Verlander in about every matchup you can. Not to take anything away from Verlander, but you know what I know Doc will have another great year, it is what he always does. Verlander has been up and down his career and absolutely blows in the clutch playoff game.

Easy choice Halladay.


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